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Racism and Anti-Racism in America

Community-Based Participatory Research

Dr. Rogerio Pinto, Professor of Social Work, describes community-based participatory research (CBPR) as a practice of creating change for communities by including them throughout the research process from ideation and design to implementation and dissemination. “Anybody who is a researcher, even without this [community-based organization] experience, can still work collaboratively. There’s got to be something that one can see as similarities, and always acknowledging the differences, and work to build some kind of alliance.” -Dr. Pinto

Excerpt From


Welcome back students. I am honored to be here with Dr. Rogério Pinto. He is an Associate Professor of Social Work at the University of Michigan. And he's gonna be talking with us today about his expanse of body of work. So, thank you for joining us. >> My pleasure. >> So I wanna talk with you to start about your work, your expertise really, in community-based participatory research. You're doing also work on transdisciplinary collaboration to improve service delivery around HIV, is that right? >> Yeah. >> Can you tell me a little bit about that body of work? >> Sure, and I've been caught anything to professional collaboration. >> Yes, I'm sorry. [LAUGH] >> No, you don't. Because yeah, I actually published few papers, but I call it transdisciplinary collaboration, but those things changed. >> Yeah. >> And we change along the way. Wow, community-based participatory research. >> Yes. >> CBPR, so we're gonna be talking about CBPR. So that everybody knows what it is. For a long time, I, even as a student, when I was doing my masters program, I had been quite preoccupied with the idea that all of the papers that I read for my classes were all about what the researchers were thinking about. And what the researchers thought might be important for my clients. And I felt there was always a voice that was missing there, which was the voice of my clients. >> Absolutely, what they want, what they need. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And so their preoccupation stayed with me along the way. And when I became a doctorial student, I saw that there was a way for me as a researcher, as a doctoral student, but as someone who is becoming a researcher- >> To kind of open a door for those clients, yeah. >> To open the door for clients, and not only clients, I mean gatekeepers in communities or anyone who cares to have some opinions about the research that I was about to do. And so I tried from the very beginning, to read as much as I could about community-based participatory research, CBPR, so that everybody remembers what it is. And I developed, for many years now, specific ways that I like to use the voice of communities to inform, not only my research questions and how I ask those questions, but also to inform the process of any kind of research that I do, be it in New York City, or in Michigan, or in Brazil, or in Spain. And what I call community here is not just clients, it's practitioners, like- >> So stakeholders, all kinds of stakeholders. >> The stakeholders, all types, administrators. It is very important to be thinking about research that will go back to community-based organizations, research that will go back to hospitals and places where social workers are delivering services, and hopefully, services that are evidence-based. And so what community practice, what our research tries to do, and what I have been trying to do, is to involve as many voices from the very beginning of the research. So that when we have findings, those findings can go back in a much more holistic and organic fashion. Well, what we know as researchers is that, that process of bringing many, many, many voices to the table can be messy. >> Yeah. >> How do you navigate that? How do you have, that your current project if I'm understanding correctly has hundreds of clinicians, right? Over what 30 service agencies who are giving input and working together, how do you navigate and manage all of those voices? >> So there are a few ways to do it, I mean you can't involve everybody in the community. I mean it's not even the purpose of community-based participatory research. But just as an example, so for many years, I have been developing community collaborative boards. And usually, research in the past, and we see a lot of people do research that way. You apply for the grant and you received the funds to do the research and at that point, you convene community advisory boards. People will in some ways provide opinions and expertise to the kinds of things that may be happening along the way. My idea for community-based participatory research is that, and I have done this for many years now. I work with a group of people, not everyone is involved in every single piece of research that I do. But the people that I have been working with, some of them having around me for 10 years, 12 years. And the beauty of doing this- >> See if that is existing relationships. >> When capacity, right, I mean you teach a group of people about how to do research, how to collect data. How to look at the results, how to read and interpret results. And those people go away, and then I have a whole new set of people to work with. What I try to do is to keep as many as I can, so that you have capacity building. And people who have now learned so many things about research, don't have to be relearning it all over again. >> Absolutely. >> So I have worked with the collaborative boards for many years, and so you go from one project to the other. >> But there's some continuity. >> There's some continuity- >> And communities involvement in these projects. >> Exactly. >> Okay. >> So, for example, in New York City, I have a project that involves, it's a long [INAUDIBLE] project, so we are interviewing practitioners three times. >> So, these are service providers? >> These are service providers, and the baseline for this study was 379 people. Of course, I'm not gonna be meeting with 379 individuals to learn what their voices are, in many ways, by collecting a lot of data from them, I will know what it is that they are thinking about a number of issues. But before I even go to them and ask them questions, there is a collaborative board putting together the questions that we are gonna be asking those 379 practitioners. There is a committee of people involved in what is the process for collecting those data? Who will collect the data? And so many of us actually go out in the field to collect the data instead of hiring people who may not have any knowledge about the projects- >> Or the community. >> Or the community. >> Right, and so many of the people who actually I involve in the collaborative boards, who were there to win the grant to be written. I mean those individuals, who actually helped me, write the grants. So we are all in many ways collaborate us on a grant that we all know very well about, because they help with specific aims, they help within methodology. >> Sure. >> And the beauty of doing those things, one is the capacity building that we just talked about. And the other one is that many of those collaborators work for the agencies where we were collecting data. >> So they're embeded in these communities structures- >> In many ways. >> In many ways, awesome. >> Some could be practitioners, some could be administrators. And so it doesn't guarantee that the findings of this study will actually go back as a matter of course, but it enhances the possibility that those results will get back to the community-based organizations where they can then be used. >> Absolutely. >> One thing that we do as well, in this particular project because it is longitudinal. We have developed reports for the baseline, and we're just in the preparation of another report, which we'll show the longitudinal changes that occurred among the 379, but not quite 379, because we don't have 379 for the follow up. But, as many as we should. >> Yes, it happens all the time. >> Yes, it's more than we thought would happen. I mean one of the thing that practitioners, social workers and many other types of practitioners who are employed. In a community based organization would be much more, would be very easy to follow up in terms of a longitudinal study. >> Sure. >> Well it's not necessarily so. They said it was funded in 2012. At a time where HIV research and practice really changed tremendously. And many agencies actually lost funding. They had been losing funding since 2008. >> Yeah, and as a result they probably lost workers. >> And they- >> So a lot >> A lot of those folks who were a part of your study and doing this community based participatory work may have moved on. >> And they did. >> Yeah. >> So, you see not only initial retention, in terms of like actually losing people >> But just not even knowing where they are. Because, they left the agency and as much as we try to track them. I mean some people move out of state, it's a complicated thing. But I think it's very telling, I mean one of the things that I love to highlight in this line of study >> Practitioners are usually not studied longitudinally. They are usually studied- >> So that you get a snapshot of what practitioners think or what their needs are, their relation to the population of interest. But you don't necessarily track those changes over time. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So this gave us an opportunity and chose to see how the environment changed and ask the question. I mean, is that any correlation and connection between the environmental changes and how practitioners change the way they think about certain things and how they practice >> HIV in particular, right or HIV or individuals who experienced HIV. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And one of the things that we most I mean the major behavior that we are interested in is whether or not practitioners helping clients to access HIV testing in primary care. So those are very important behaviors that, and it's simple when you think about it. Of course, we must be making them before. It's not so. In the frequency that practitioners make those referrals. It's very different from agency to agency, from practitioner to practitioner. So we are trying to learn what it is that actually in some ways determine >> Yeah. >> How practitioners behave in relationship to many behaviors but specifically about >> Those behaviors. >> Those two behaviors. >> Yeah. So you've done this work not only in the United States, in New York in particular but also in other countries as well. >> Yes. Particularly in Brazil. >> Yeah, any lessons about the difference in facilitating those collaborations, setting up those community based partnerships that have translated to other countries or translated from your work in Brazil to the US. Sure. So the way research actually is conducted, in Brazil it's quite different than it is in the United States. Nothing with the dollars. I mean, the dollars are basically the same. I'll just give you a few examples. For example, in the United States, it is common to give some incentive for someone to- >> Mm-hm, absolutely. You want someone to participate in your research, you give them a gift card. Or you make it easier for them in some way to participate. >> And so you may give them like a gift card for $30. >> Right. >> So they would you know, in Brazil, you can't do that. I mean by law, you're not allowed to provide incentive. >> So people have to participate of their free will and there can't be any incentive. >> Altruistically. >> Okay. >> So then in any ways already makes a different Right I mean as to who participates and who doesn't. Rates of participation are very high in Brazil. And in Spain where I have done research as well, there is no law in Spain that actually prohibits giving incentives, but culturally and socially it's not encouraged. So in those two places where I have done research, I have not been able to provide incentives. I mean you can provide refreshments or something. >> Right, but certainly not a cash incentive. >> No, you can't give cash incentives. >> So it sounds like a big part of being a researcher who does work in multiple countries is having to be culturally grounded and what the norms, not only the laws but also the social norms of those particular societies. And adjusting your research accordingly. >> Well you're adjusting how you yes in many ways >> How you recruit? How you retain? Covers of people. How you ask questions? I mean there are so many things that we can go on talking about. >> Yeah. >> Because it changes, the research is the same. The methodology in terms of what the questions are and the surveys might be the same or even the qualitative questions that you might have. But the way they are asked and how the research is conducted can be quite different in that sense. And another big difference in terms of working, I mean to what extents can one do community based but research when you are in another country. Right, I mean the very idea of community for most people is more geographically defined or it could be identification But communities we usually think about them as being more circumscribed. But if you are doing participatory search, which is community based in other country, how does that work? >> Right. >> So it is a little different. I don't have the same structure in terms of a community collaborative boards in Brazil. But I do have a smaller structure with the individuals. For example my research in Brazil is directly related to the national unified health system. So individuals who work for that system have become partners >> Right >> In the research and the work and they have been extremely helpful in determining a lot of methodologies that we have used For example to collect data and then interpretation of the results as well. But there is no collaborative structure in Brazil as I have in New York City. >> I'm still building one in Michigan. I mean I've only been here just, >> Yeah, just two years. >> A little over 2 years, >> But it's coming along and the idea is to have a lesson structure that we'll continue to work together independently as to where the research is actually happening. So what I'm trying to say a collaborative board in New York City. Can be very helpful when you're doing research even if it is in another country. Because the diversity that you have inside of those collaborative boards. I make sure that the members of the collaborative boards who are working with me are very different from me in a number of ways. Not only demographically, but they think in some ways. >> Yeah your level of expertise. >> Exactly. >> The knowledge theat they're bringing about their own communities and their own experiences, absolutely. >> So it's not that we do, I like that you say just cause I say that's true all the time. But the idea of collaboration is not to hold hands and do the same thing together. Is to do things that are different to have a particular outcome. If I know exactly what it is that you know it doesn't make a lot of sense for us to do it together. But, if you have a particular knowledge and I have a different knowledge, whatever it is that we do can possibly, >> Compliment one another. >> Compliment one another. >> To get to a common goal. >> Exactly. >> Absolutely. >> That's the idea. >> Yes. I wanna turn this talking a little bit about this community wise project that are co-investigator on. >> Sure. >> So, you recently hosted a community wise art exhibition and fishbowl conversation, showcasing. >> Here in Michigan. >> Yes, here. Showcasing community-based interventions ground in a particular pedagogy using art and cognitive behavioral therapy. And the goal was to build critical consciousness among individuals with a history of incarceration. >> Yes. >> And so I know that that's not your particular area of research but that you're engaged with other researchers who have this particular passion or doing this work. >> Absolutely. And so, can you talk a little, I won't even try to pronounce but I'm going to let you pronounce this particular philosopher's name. But can you talk about who this work is informed by, and why this concept of critical consciousness is at the center of working with these individuals who have been previously incarcerated? >> Sure, so there are a few things for us to do here. So we use community-based participatory research principles to guide all the research that we did. And what that means is to make sure that community participation happens. >From the inception of the project, and what I mean by inception is not the beginning, it's even before- >> It's the thought, right? >> It's the thought of it. >> So you go, instead of a very traditional kind of research community collaboration where a researcher says this is what I wanna study, and let me go find a community who will let me study this thing amongst them. You go to a community and say, what is it that you need or that you're interested in, and then let me work with you to create a project that might meet your needs, and then we walk through that project together. >> Yeah, then it's not always perfect, right? >> Yeah. >> Because sometimes a community may be very interested in doing something that I don't have the expertise to do, right? >> Sure, sure. And another thing that happens sometimes, that the community may be interested in something that I agree 100% needs to be done, but there is no grants to apply for. >> That's right, yeah. >> So it's a combination of actually, waiting for the right moment. >> Having to find that fit, yeah. >> And the beauty of working with the same communities and the same individuals in collaborative boards, is that sometimes the research that I wanna do now, because it is something, that my heart is asking me to do. This funding should do may not necessarily be what it is we will be doing in two years. So someone who was collaborating with me longitudinally may wait. >> Until the moment- >> Until the moment it's right. >> Sure. >> So that's the other beauty of actually working with people longitudinally. >> Yeah. >> So this project, I'm the co-investigator. >> Community-wise, [CROSSTALK] >> Community-wise, and it is focused on individuals who have been previously incarcerated, but also individuals who have history of substance abuse and misuse. >> Okay. >> So those are the criteria that we used for this particular project. It started in Newark in New Jersey. >> Wow. >> With a professor in Rutgers University, who is a friend and who is someone who I had been mentoring for many years now. >> Mm-hm, mm-hm. >> And the idea of that project is to help individuals with those his service to change their behaviors, but not only using cognitive structures in the way that we see usually being used. >> Its kind of traditional therapeutic methods. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Where you work with someone to help them understand something's bad, which is to change that level of knowledge and skill. So usually those interventions help people to change the knowledge that they have or enhance the knowledge that they have about a specific problem. In this particular case, it could have been knowledge around incarceration and about substance use and misuse. And then we also try to help those individuals change their attitudes toward the very behavior that they would like to change. Such as today I may think that my attitude may be it's okay to use drug ABC, drugs ABC. So the idea is to change that attitude to something, well, maybe it is okay to use ABC, but the quantity of it that I'm using Is not good for me. >> Sure. >> And so maybe I will change my attitude toward that drug so I can change my behavior. >> And another thing that we try to change a lot is social norms, so that individuals who might be performing a particular behavior need support from peers in order to help [CROSSTALK] >> And preferably peers who are not engaged in the behavior that they're trying to change, right? Yeah. >> Peers might be trying to make the same changes. >> Right. >> So we need to change those norms where change in the behavior becomes the social norm, etc. So we can go on and on, but we don't have to. But, so there are many cognitive things that one needs to change In order to change a behavior, right? >> And so what Community Wise does is they don't only use these kind of traditional, kind of behavioral tools, but they're also using art, is that right? >> Exactly, so what we have tried to do is to use arts to help people understand those cognitive structures. But not only in terms of the individual, the art that we use actually illustrate social contexts. So the intervention includes six paintings. And each one of them represents a particular social context that we think in many ways shape how people feel and how people think about incarceration and substance use and misuse. >> So essentially, are you helping this person who's formally incarcerated to kind of see how they're situated in a bigger picture? >> Exactly, and understand how the environment and the very organizations and the various structures that created the opportunities for them to use drugs and actually to see themselves in jail, actually, just as important. >> Mm-hm. >> If not more important to their behavior. >> Right. >> Right? So that the behavior is not happening in a vacuum. It's the thing that's happening inside of your heads, right? So that all your attitudes, all your knowledge and all your social norms are being constructed inside of your head without staying influenced of the environment. >> Right. >> So what those paintings help the individuals do is to begin to see themselves in a social context that involves a lot of oppression. Individuals who have histories of incarceration and substance use and abuse very often have had very oppressive lives, not only during the time that they had been living. But if they are, for example from the Native American community- >> Sure, or could be some generational trauma. >> Generational trauma in the African American community, and so on and so forth. So what this intervention tries to do is to understand oppression as one major factor that influences people's behaviors that lead them to incarceration, and to using and misusing different types of substances. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And so the way to modifying those behaviors is by understanding oppression at a very structural level in the way we believe this can be done is by developing- >> Critical consciousness. >> Critical consciousness. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And in how one develops critical consciousness is by establishing very productive dialogues between and across individuals who are in the same struggle. So- >> So, seeing your experiences, your traumatic histories and some of the factors that brought you to this place reflected in the experiences of others. >> Of other people, so vis-a-vis other people's experiences. And then as facilitators we help them understand where those structures began where they are coming from, how they develop and how they influence behaviors. And so, Oppression doesn't happen in a vacuum right? One needs to believe what the oppressive forces are telling them in order to behave in a certain way. What we hope to do by developing critical consciousness, is to help people understand that they have something to say about it. >> Sure, there's some agency, if only to write a new story, right? Or to tell yourself a new narrative about what the expected outcome is. >> What your life has been up to that point, and what it is you wish your life to be from that moment forward. In all this structure that we set up in terms of developing critical consciousness, and tackle oppression as a major variable that is determining people's behavior Is based on the pedagogy of the oppressed, and some other theories. Critical consciousness being the central one, that was put together by Paulo Freire. Which is the person that, you will try to say his name. So, Paulo Freire is an educator from Brazil. >> Very well known. >> Very well known. Who, particularly in the 70's, developed this strategy of showing individuals in groups pictures, drawings. And help them having dialogues about oppression, and oppressive forces, by seeing some of those forces in the pictures. And then developing critical consciousness, which, at the end of the day, is a very simple thing. It's you being able to differentiate between what's real, and what it is that you're being told is real. >> Right. >> And becoming more curious to be- >> About not only- >> To discern- >> Yeah, so not only your own circumstances. But also the structural forces that have shaped, kind of, the trajectory of you and people like you. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> As I was talking to my colleague the other day. It's helping people differentiate between, what's an fact and what's an alternative fact. In the way we see things, nowadays. >> Right, absolutely. >> So there's a construction of a reality. And so, as someone who has more critical consciousness, you become a better judge. About the extent which, that reality is truly your reality. Or it is somebody else's reality, that you're being told is your reality. >> Sure. >> You're ugly, you are marginal, you're bad. >> Right. >> You're poor, you're all these things. >> And you don't have much power to escape those circumstances, right? >> No. >> Right, yeah, absolutely. >> So, having critical consciousness gives you the necessary internal capacity and energy. To ask more questions, and then become more aware. >> Sure, is this an empowerment tool? >> It's very much about empowerment. >> Yeah, do you use these concepts of critical consciousness in your own teaching? >> Yes, very much so, and in my research, right? >> Yeah. >> In many ways, it guides my research. In that, what I try to do in my collaborative board, and any kind of research question that I have. I mean, underneath it all, what I'm going for is social justice. I mean, that's really what drives my research. It's what drives anything that I do, in terms of my service. >> Sure. >> And anything I do in terms of my teaching. Is to really help individuals, be it my students, my collaborators, practitioners that I might be interested in. Either develop critical consciousness, or become, each moment, better aware of what it is that's happening around us. And so with my students, the same kind of dialogue that I was talking about before. Those back-and-forth kinds of conversations, that really make one become, not only more aware of things. But more critical about information that they receive from the environment. >> A better filter, right? >> A much better filter, so that's what I try to help my students become. Practitioners who can discern between what's real and what's not. So that when they're providing services to their clients, they can establish that same kind of relationship, right? So in my classroom, I'm interested in developing a relationship with my students that's very much mutual and equal. My teaching philosophy is really based on Paulo Freire's philosophy, and what he believed, more than anything else. That we have, within ourselves, all the information that we need, not only to survive but to thrive. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And as a teacher, he believed, and that's what guides my work, is that that knowledge is already there. And what I may have, as a teacher, is a set of tools. That I can use, to help my students bring that knowledge out. And I'm not saying that one doesn't have to read a book, or whatever. I want to make that very clear. I mean, it's not that we have all the books that we need inside of our heads. But we do have the discernment, as to what it is that we need, in order to behave in a certain way. In the case of social work students, it's how to be the best practitioners they can be. So I make the assumption that we all have the knowledge. And if we bring the tools that we have as teachers, we can then build on that knowledge. And create these skills, that we need to provide services, to do research. And to do whatever it is that we are trying to achieve. >> Absolutely. So, one of the things that we're doing in this course is, we're trying to understand how to be better allies. How to be better partners to individuals in communities who are trying to affect social change. Are there any take-away messages that you have from your work, from your extensive research, on how to be better allies? How to partner with individuals and communities, particularly marginalized communities, to help them make change? >> That's hard, right? I mean, because there are at least two ways of thinking about being an ally. I mean, there was a time in my life, long ago, that I thought, I mean. Being an ally was just like, I like this particular population. Would I know someone who has been oppressed in some ways? >> So I support them. >> Yes, and I'm gonna help somehow, right? >> Right, right. >> And I make a differentiation because, I mean, a lot of people say that we'll support certain things. And to me, support is not just, say, I like someone, and I'm supporting it. >> No, there's an action, right? >> The support really needs work. >> There's an action component to being an ally. >> Exactly, yeah, it's going to the demonstration, or providing some emotional support, or financial support. >> Showing up, of course. >> Showing up, somehow. So I used to think that one could do those things, and I still think one can do those things. And that would make you an ally. But clearly, I mean, that this course has changed over time. Nowadays, marginalized, and I put it in quotes. Because it's only marginalized when we marginalize, right? The groups that have been marginalized and oppressed, in many ways. That our conversations inside those groups about being an ally, being someone that the group chooses. So to what extent one can be an ally, without sanction from the group, is up for discussion. >> So essentially saying, it is okay to support a community or an individual who has been disenfranchised in some way. But also, that community, or that individual, should be empowered to reach out for your support, or want your support. That we can't just kind of barge in. >> Exactly. >> Essentially, and declare our intention to help, without being invited. >> Well, because in some ways, it could be actually misconstrued, or construed as barging. >> Sure, like we're not saviors, right? >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so we have to walk this really fine line, around wanting to provide help and support. But also, being welcome in those communities, and being seen as partners. And sometimes, it takes some relationship-building to be invited in. >> Yes and I think it's not to. I mean, this is not to inhibit people from wanting to be allies, and wanting to help. I mean- >> But there's a way of going about doing even that work, yeah. >> Well, so a few things. I mean, I can send financial help to an organization that is trying to help refugees, for example. But that doesn’t necessarily to make me an ally to refugees. It makes me someone who wants to support a particular cause, right? I think that, as we approach groups, and provide more and more support I think we enhanced our chance that that group there now is interested in having us helping them. >> Mm-hm. >> And then I think it's easy to let someone call you an ally than to call oneself an ally. What I have learned over the years in terms of my research and my teaching, is that if there's anything, I mean it's really to be who you are, right? I think that what I have learned more than anything is authenticity. >> Mm-hm. >> It's to be that person that you really are when you go to sleep. Where there's no pretense. There's nobody watching. It's only you and your pillow. >> Right. >> And in that moment, hopefully, you are your most authentic self. >> Mm-hm. >> And try to reproduce that during the day with my students, with my colleagues, and with my collaborators. >> Right. >> Anywhere that I go and I think that's what I get back by behaving that way. Is this confirmation that people do see when you're being authentic? And I'm not sure that authenticity is the same thing and looks the same all the time. >> Mm-hm. >> I mean so much in life is political. >> Mm-hm. >> Right? But even things that are political, I think we need to be very clear about them. And not pretend that they are not there. I mean I'm not going to pretend that when I'm in a meeting defining, they study aims for the particular research, and what is it that we are going to do. I'm not going to pretend that I have the same exact power that someone in the community doesn't have a PhD has. >> Right. >> Someone in the community who may have had a high school diploma- >> Sure. >> Who's extremely interested in doing the kinds of things that I'm doing. >> It does not have that level of knowledge, or connections or skill, right. >> So- >> Yeah, but so would you say that it's kind of incumbent upon us as those who are at the table, who are in the room when some of these decisions are being made? Just find opportunities where we can leverage that power, to leverage that awareness, or to leverage that privilege that we bring. And if that also is a part of understanding our role as allies. >> Absolutely, I mean I think that that's the first thing. It's really creating the awareness of what's happening. >> Mm-hm. >> I think so much nowadays is about this funny, fake reality of things. It's almost like we are trying to talk about things and create situations that look a certain way. >> Mm-hm. Mm-hm. >> It has become this thing about making something look like whatever it is. >> Mm-hm. >> And I think what I try to do and I think what we need totally is authenticity. >> Mm-hm. >> It's not trying to create a reality, it's be what the reality is. >> Yes, yes. So bringing your authentic self to communities and causes and things that you want to support that you genuinely feel an affinity for and allowing people to take you as you are. >> Yes. >> As opposed to presenting something that you're not. >> And be sincere, right, I mean speak from your heart, and acknowledge the differences. >> Mm-hm. >> And acknowledge the similarities. >> Right. >> I mean this funny dichotomy in collaborative research and teaching where there's this thing about the collaborator from the community or they collaborated with the teacher being the students. And I think that sometimes is dichotomy, in many ways erases- >> Mm-hm. >> Or, well if it doesn't erase, it obscures- >> Mm-hm. >> Some of the experiences that we may have. >> Mm-hm. >> I'm not just a researcher. >> Sure. >> 20 years ago, and 10 years ago, I participated in research as well. It's not that I have never been a research participant. >> Right, on that side of it, right, right, exactly. >> So I have been there, I have lived in poor communities. >> Sure. >> Right, I mean, I'm not saying that every researcher has the same history in their lives. But I happened to be someone, I cannot speak the language of someone who's living in poverty today. But I know what poverty is from personal experience. >> Mm-hm. Mm-hm. >> So once you are the researcher, that doesn't mean that that's the only thing that you are. >> Right. >> And in my case, I mean I happened to be someone who has also worked as a practitioner for many years. >> Right. >> So I mean I know what it is should be in a community based organization and providing services. To- >> So you can leverage that knowledge, you can bring that to the table as well. >> And I think that even if you don't have those experiences. >> Mm-hm. >> You, meaning anybody- >> Yeah. >> Who is a researcher, that person, even without this experience, is still can work collaboratively. >> Absolutely. >> There's got to be something that one can see as similarities. >> Yes. >> And always acknowledging the differences. And working to build some kind of alliance. >> Yeah, I agree. I think that's a great stopping point. I have really appreciated hearing about your work, your expertise. The work not only domestically, but also abroad. And I just really thank you for being here- >> You're very welcome. >> With us today. >> And pleasure. >> Thank you. This has been a conversation with Dr. Rogerio Pinto, he's an Associate Professor of Social Work at the University of Michigan. So until next time.