Will Potter on Journalism and Interacting with Journalists

0:00 so thank you so much for joining me 0:02 today I'd like to get us started by 0:05 having you introduce yourself and your 0:07 role here at the University of Michigan 0:08 when it was a will potter i came to Ann 0:11 Arbor last year as a knight Wallace 0:13 fellow which brings journalists from all 0:15 over the world for Europe study and 0:17 research here at the University and I 0:19 was really fortunate that it turned into 0:21 a visiting professor position Wow now 0:24 I'm teaching courses on investigative 0:26 journalism and whistleblowing and social 0:27 movements here at the University wow 0:29 that's fantastic saryu in the 0:30 Communication Studies department in the 0:32 communication studies very cool um so 0:34 given that you have a lot of 0:36 journalistic background can you talk a 0:38 little bit about the types of 0:39 experiences that you've had as a 0:41 journalist and in interacting with 0:42 academics so I've kind of had a 0:44 unconventional career path as a 0:46 journalist I'm spent a lot of time you 0:49 know reporting and writing for newsrooms 0:51 and magazines and then over the years it 0:54 evolved into not only writing my 0:56 original reporting but also speaking 0:59 about it with the media so doing 1:00 television and radio and print 1:02 interviews as a source rather than a 1:05 journalist very cool and then that kind 1:07 of also evolved into a day job for a 1:09 while doing public relations I've seen 1:12 the interrelations with the media from a 1:15 lot of different perspectives as 1:16 journalists public relations rep and 1:20 also as a media commentator and so as a 1:23 public relations rep so you've had some 1:25 experience with interacting with 1:27 researchers and trying to help them 1:28 translate their findings to wider public 1:30 absolutely I mean that was a core part 1:32 of my work and also have done a lot of 1:34 consulting you know media trainings and 1:36 speaker trainings about specifically 1:38 that you know all this great research 1:40 has been done how do we take it and 1:42 package it in a way that not only is 1:44 going to get media interested in 1:45 covering the issue but then covering it 1:47 in the way that is accurate and 1:50 continues the story that's been created 1:52 okay so I know this is a little bit off 1:54 book but can you give us are your sort 1:56 of top three tips for accomplishing 1:58 those goals oh so I think my most 2:01 important sounds kind of silly but it's 2:03 think about telling a story to your 2:06 mother because I think you know all of 2:08 us or at least personally speaking my 2:10 mom is really supportive maybe not 2:13 informed of all the details of what I'm 2:15 working on and so whenever I'm thinking 2:17 about doing media interviews I'm trying 2:19 to speak to someone like that yeah you 2:21 know expecting the best knowing that 2:23 they're on your side they want to hear 2:26 about this but they don't have all the 2:28 background that you do so that would far 2:31 in a way be my most important tip the 2:33 second would be to be available you know 2:36 to recognize that reporters around 2:38 deadline they might be annoying and 2:40 pressing and you know with those 2:43 deadlines sometimes but they don't have 2:45 a choice if you can work around their 2:46 schedule you're going to get placed in 2:49 stories a lot more frequently sure and 2:51 then the third would be to just talk 2:53 conversationally you have to remember 2:56 that you're not speaking in an academic 2:57 context you're not talking with other 2:59 researchers you're talking to people 3:01 that might have just found out about 3:02 your issue that morning when they got 3:05 the assignment from their editor to 3:06 write the story like you know we hope 3:08 not we hope they've done their research 3:10 but but reality yeah or they might be 3:13 you know an intern you have no idea 3:16 who's handling this assignment so you 3:18 want to make your story conversational 3:20 and approachable and really don't be 3:23 afraid of what we would think is dumbing 3:25 it down I would like to say it's just 3:27 being conversational yeah I tend to 3:30 agree so like as a science communication 3:32 person I really hate the term dumbing it 3:35 down I think that it's really just 3:37 meeting your audience where it is do you 3:38 agree with that perspective or no oh 3:40 absolutely i mean recognizing that 3:42 people are all in different stages of 3:44 education about these issues mhm and you 3:46 want to be able to speak in a way that 3:48 is welcoming to the most people possible 3:50 and that doesn't mean like you said your 3:53 dumbing it down or diluting your message 3:55 you're just telling that message in 3:57 different form mm-hmm so if you think 4:00 about it like you know you have multiple 4:01 iterations of a story with your research 4:04 there's the story that you publish in an 4:06 academic journal there's the story you 4:08 tell your students about what you're 4:09 doing and I think this is just another 4:11 version of that speaking about your work 4:13 in a different way absolutely I love it 4:16 so I want to shift gears a little bit 4:19 and start talking about what it's like 4:21 to work in the media space specifically 4:23 so as of a journalist who do you 4:26 interact why 4:27 when you're starting to construct a 4:28 story especially a story about something 4:30 like a scientific research project so 4:32 there are a couple different approaches 4:34 I mean for the reporters who are 4:35 covering science and medicine technology 4:38 as their beat they have a few different 4:41 types of sources I mean if people that 4:42 they're checking in with regularly that 4:45 are giving that big you know 10,000 4:47 20,000 foot overview of what the story 4:50 means is it significant this is yet 4:53 another study about coffee being good 4:56 for your health yeah is this true what 4:58 in a way this in terms of the other peer 5:01 reviewed research that's out there right 5:02 yeah and then there are the sources that 5:04 are specifically related to that 5:06 breaking news so the people that are 5:08 involved in the study or at the 5:10 university whatever you need to get that 5:12 quote from because they are the people 5:14 involved yeah and then in addition to 5:17 that I mean most of these types of 5:19 stories you want an outsider perspective 5:20 I mean someone that's speaking to either 5:24 the significance of the research what 5:26 ramifications it has for other areas how 5:30 wonderful or how terrible it is I mean 5:32 it's kind of formulaic in some ways but 5:35 all those voices have a role in the 5:36 story so when you're looking for this 5:38 outside voice I'm curious who it is that 5:41 you're looking for are you looking for 5:42 other researchers are you looking for 5:44 somebody who might be impacted from a 5:46 policy standpoint like who is it that 5:48 you're searching for for this other side 5:49 really be all of those things I mean so 5:51 for instance if you're doing a story 5:53 about a new cancer study no research 5:56 some of the obvious you know go tues 5:59 would be compelling human narrative 6:01 about a family that this is there hope 6:04 right now or it could be a member of 6:06 Congress or a policymaker a lobbyist who 6:09 is trying to get funding for this to 6:11 reframe the public discussion about 6:14 these issues it could be you know just 6:17 people out in the field at the hospitals 6:19 are in them you know science community 6:21 that have that experience and can add 6:23 just another voice it really depends on 6:26 the story and I think it depends on 6:28 what's available to those reporters at 6:30 the time and you can't use that classic 6:32 hero narrative or victim narrative with 6:35 every story it depends on who's 6:37 available and what they have and then 6:39 also probably I'm 6:40 guessing here but so please correct me 6:42 if I'm wrong also the length and also 6:44 the slant that maybe your editor is 6:46 looking for you to take after it so if 6:48 someone is covering a story as a 6:49 breaking news piece that's going to be 6:51 very very different than if they're 6:53 writing for you know science magazine or 6:56 if you're writing for mother jones new 6:58 york times we're doing a video on Vice 7:00 all those things have very different 7:02 formats and needs absolutely but I would 7:06 argue that the same researcher can hit 7:08 effectively hit all of those areas and 7:11 be an expert in all those areas but you 7:13 have to change your message I mean you 7:15 can't talk about science or research 7:18 with Vice the same way you're going to 7:21 speak to you know a science magazine or 7:23 with the new york times magazine on a 20 7:27 page features cover story I mean all of 7:29 those things are very different 7:30 absolutely so we'll come back to 7:33 messaging in just a couple of minutes 7:35 because I think that you have a lot of 7:36 really incredible insights and I'd 7:38 really look forward to having you share 7:40 them with our participants for now let's 7:42 stay a little bit focused on audience 7:44 and I'd like you to talk about what kind 7:47 of goals you go into an interview with 7:49 somebody like a scientist if you're 7:51 trying to help them uncover a story that 7:54 you're covering right so my approach 7:57 with interviews in general is just to 8:00 let the person I'm interviewing know 8:02 that they should assume I know 8:03 absolutely nothing about the topic 8:05 hopefully I've had the time to do my due 8:08 diligence and do my background research 8:09 but I still want them to speak to me in 8:12 that way and not assume that I know some 8:15 incredible detail in their mind that 8:17 they're not sharing with me but after we 8:20 established that you know there are a 8:22 couple approaches to it i'm looking for 8:23 the social significance mhm you know as 8:25 a journalist I want to connect this 8:27 story to my readers absolutely that's 8:30 the only way it's gonna get published 8:31 yep so you know I don't want to stretch 8:34 the truth in that regard of course show 8:37 that some research is going to be 8:39 applicable in a way it's not but if i 8:40 can connect those that's going to make a 8:42 much better story in addition to that if 8:45 i can show this is part of a trend is it 8:48 part of a bigger story a bigger cultural 8:50 narrative that we're dealing with as a 8:53 country right now 8:54 bigger crisis that the the nation is 8:56 facing can you connect it to a bigger 8:58 story so really those two levels 9:00 absolutely I mean that makes a lot of 9:02 sense and then i guess if since you've 9:04 worked some with researchers to help 9:08 them shape these types of stories for 9:10 journalists can you talk for just a 9:12 minute about what kinds of goals the 9:14 researcher should have when interacting 9:16 with a journalist or what the public 9:18 relations professional yeah I think the 9:20 most important it sounds kind of silly 9:22 but it's just to be conversational and 9:25 approachable I mean to me researchers 9:28 you really want to do two things you 9:30 want to be featured at that breaking 9:33 news story about some incredible work 9:34 you've done but you also want the 9:36 long-term relationships so at a place 9:38 like the University of Michigan we have 9:40 all these world-class experts that have 9:42 some of them have ongoing relationships 9:45 so that when ever a story comes up 9:48 anywhere in the orbit of what you work 9:50 on you can get an informal 9:52 off-the-record email or phone call to 9:55 check in with you to me that's so much 9:57 more valuable than being the one who's 9:59 actually quoted every time because 10:01 you're directly shaping the story you're 10:03 helping reporters understand what's 10:05 worth focusing on and what's not yeah so 10:08 if you can build that relationship you 10:09 can be doing fantastic also hopefully it 10:12 takes some of the pressure off of 10:13 researchers with thinking they have to 10:15 be the face in front of the camera all 10:17 the time sure if you're not if you're 10:19 really horribly uncomfortable with that 10:21 there's still a role for you to play 10:22 with the press as being the background 10:25 off the record conversational grabbing 10:28 coffee whatever dealing with reporters 10:30 in that way oh that makes a lot of sense 10:32 and I really appreciate that you 10:33 highlighted that difference between 10:35 being quoted on the record and also 10:37 playing a role in shaping the story off 10:39 the record I think that that's really 10:40 important and not something that a lot 10:42 of researchers really have a decent 10:44 grasp of no I think people get really 10:46 intimidated by it I mean you start 10:48 throwing around terms that have very 10:49 specific meanings and people are afraid 10:52 that if they don't use it the right way 10:53 they'll be misquoted and all those 10:56 concerns are valid and I understand them 10:58 but just be up front when you're dealing 11:02 with journalists and say you know I'm 11:04 not sure the right terminology to use as 11:06 if deep background of 11:08 this is completely off the record if 11:09 this is not for attribution but what I 11:11 want to do is tell you what I'm thinking 11:14 and then I don't want my name anywhere 11:16 in the baby that's fine just be upfront 11:19 with them yeah and it seems like the 11:21 more that you build the relationship 11:23 with the journalist the easier it is to 11:24 have that type of conversation and the 11:26 more you sort of get immersed in that 11:28 type of lingo those types of jargon 11:29 words right absolutely i mean i have 11:31 plenty of sources who have consistently 11:33 fed me stories off the record on deep 11:36 background no attribution no 11:38 fingerprints on it either through 11:40 anonymous leaks or people who I know 11:42 that I can't reveal their identity and 11:45 it's just understood I'm and then there 11:47 are other sources that I know they're so 11:49 busy that when I'm calling them it's to 11:52 get the quick sound bite got it and they 11:54 can do that for me really quickly sure 11:56 um and then we get it we're done they 11:59 move on I move on and it's just a 12:02 different type of relationship I mean I 12:04 try to tell people it's just like we 12:05 have different types of friendships and 12:07 office relationships it's just like that 12:08 with dealing with the press sometimes 12:10 you want to spend or will be spending 12:12 lots of time on background with our 12:14 along conversations and other times 12:16 you're just getting a quick phone call 12:17 that makes a lot of sense oh I really 12:19 appreciate you sharing those 12:21 perspectives I think that they'll be 12:22 really valuable for our teacher my 12:23 pleasure yeah