Sustainable Foods Q&A

hello and welcome back to this uh teach 0:02 out on food sustainability my name is 0:03 cameron rivkin and joining me today is 0:06 alex and allison 0:07 um would you guys like to introduce 0:09 yourself starting with alex 0:11 yeah thanks cameron 0:13 so my name is alex bryan i serve 0:15 in sustainability across student life at 0:17 the university of michigan that includes 0:19 quite a bit of work with dining and 0:20 sustainable food and engaging students 0:23 in their food system across campus i 0:25 have a background in food insecurity 0:27 through the greater lansing food bank 0:28 and working within community gardens and 0:30 community development i 0:33 co-owned and operated an urban farm in 0:35 detroit and served on various boards and 0:37 non-profits from national young farmers 0:39 coalition to michigan food farming 0:41 systems 0:42 and overall just like to be engaged in 0:44 the food in my community uh whether 0:46 that's gardens in my yard and sharing it 0:48 with friends or helping on food policy 0:50 councils 0:54 that's great thank you for introducing 0:55 yourself allison would you like to go 0:57 next yeah 0:58 hi i'm alison bressler i'm a phd 1:01 candidate in the school for environment 1:03 and sustainability at the university of 1:05 michigan 1:06 um i work in the agroecology lab at ncs 1:10 with jennifer blush and we primarily 1:13 study cover crops 1:15 and how cover crops can enhance 1:17 ecosystem functions on farms so a lot of 1:20 this has to do with 1:21 improving sustainable agriculture using 1:24 methods that farmers can adopt on for 1:27 all types of farms 1:30 that's great it's really great to have 1:31 both of you here um so in our previous 1:34 module interviewees were asked what one 1:36 action is that they would recommend to 1:38 help the environment uh so do you guys 1:40 have any recommendations for our 1:41 listeners 1:44 yeah could have a whole bunch but um 1:46 maybe i'll help him first to helsin and 1:48 just offer that um 1:50 organize and advocate you know i think 1:52 it really comes down to 1:54 um letting your elected officials and 1:57 and other officials in government know 1:59 that what's important to you and these 2:01 are issues that we care about in our 2:02 community and uh push the lever that way 2:06 um we can make big policy changes by 2:08 just a few little voices coming up and 2:10 speaking up and i guess i was always 2:12 surprised at how low 2:14 the um bar to entry was to engaging with 2:17 elected officials right like it's it's 2:18 really easy call them up ask for an 2:20 office visit they're happy to host you 2:22 uh they really don't get to engage with 2:24 constituents that often in sort of 2:26 genuine ways and and so um you know 2:29 whether that's a meeting or talking on 2:30 the phone 2:31 emails like it all is actually quite 2:33 welcomed um by the elected officials by 2:36 the staff there and um yeah i can't 2:38 recommend that enough 2:40 that's great you know writing the good 2:43 old-fashioned letter to congress 2:44 congressman uh definitely helps also 90 2:47 recommendations yeah i agree with all of 2:49 that 2:50 if you don't have candidates running for 2:53 political office who support things like 2:55 green infrastructure and climate smart 2:57 agriculture i would also suggest looking 3:00 into running for political office 3:03 uh local local public office is often 3:05 something that's accessible 3:07 um and it often isn't that hard to win 3:10 those elections just because there isn't 3:11 a lot of competition so things like city 3:14 council and school board like any of 3:16 those local offices that you can do 3:20 uh in addition to your regular job can 3:23 be really helpful if there aren't 3:24 current 3:25 candidates who are supporting those 3:28 um sustainability practices in your 3:30 community 3:31 yeah and i'm glad you uh bring up 3:33 candidates who don't necessarily you 3:35 know have sustainability as a priority 3:37 because one of our learners actually 3:39 asks how do they get people in their 3:41 community to start caring about 3:42 sustainable diets do you guys have any 3:44 advice on that uh so so yeah i would i 3:47 would offer cameron that um leading by 3:49 example is was one of those great uh 3:52 instances here you know i think 3:55 oftentimes i'll generally point to 3:57 larger policy shifts and think about 3:59 institutional 4:00 responsibility for these bigger changes 4:03 you know changing culture and changing 4:04 policy 4:05 i do think sustainable diets it's food 4:08 is so personal right we connect across 4:10 food in such really profound ways that 4:13 connects to our family our culture our 4:15 history um it can be very visceral um 4:20 you know something we do multiple times 4:21 a day hopefully for we're lucky to be 4:23 able to eat and 4:24 um so i think that's one of those that 4:26 you can lead by example and just start 4:28 shifting your diet and sharing that with 4:30 with friends um over meals not just like 4:33 hey you need to eat this way differently 4:34 because it's probably not gonna work um 4:37 i also would say find out what what 4:39 motivates people you know like 4:41 sustainability can look a lot of 4:43 different ways it doesn't have to be 4:44 like you can't eat meat like what are 4:47 you doing eating meat like that's let's 4:48 not get there because it's not going to 4:50 be helpful we want to we want to find 4:52 what motivates people 4:54 on a personal level and and find ways to 4:56 shift it out maybe it's health you know 4:58 maybe it's caring about kids right like 5:00 you really care about your kids like 5:02 cool let's talk about a better diet 5:03 that's going to make the world a lot 5:05 more livable for them in the future uh 5:07 you know find find that little bit and 5:09 and um connect there and do it in a i 5:12 think 5:13 um a less preachy way in a more caring 5:16 way i guess i could say 5:18 yeah definitely nothing wrong with 5:20 finding some common ground there 5:22 um so alex i'm sure you could uh speak a 5:24 lot to this next question what are some 5:26 of the most common or biggest challenges 5:27 with starting a community or local 5:29 garden 5:32 yeah i think um so i ran a community 5:35 garden program for many years in lansing 5:37 and we helped quite a few folks start 5:40 community gardens 5:42 the model we took was to build 5:44 leadership skills within the community 5:46 and 5:47 less about how to garden and more about 5:49 how to 5:51 you know have conflict resolution and 5:55 asset mapping and sort of a 5:57 community-based development idea right 5:58 so thinking about what assets are 6:00 already in my community 6:01 what am i starting from not what am i 6:03 missing 6:04 and and getting a garden going that way 6:07 oftentimes we would do this visioning 6:09 exercise with people to be like okay 6:11 what what does your garden look like 6:13 right you want to start a garden what 6:14 does it look like you know think about 6:16 it close your eyes you know write it out 6:18 map it out 6:19 and um 6:20 the thing that almost everybody always 6:23 missed 6:24 were people 6:25 right they would draw these great 6:26 gardens with like compost bins here and 6:29 rows of vegetables here oh this is kind 6:31 of fence we're going to have 6:33 it's like okay but 6:34 where are the people in your garden 6:36 and um you know i think that that that's 6:39 sort of the hardest part of starting a 6:40 community garden is building that 6:42 community um building the the sense of 6:44 resilience that you're going to have to 6:46 make it last right like you can go out 6:48 and you can i can start a garden you can 6:50 call it a community garden but if my 6:51 neighbors aren't gonna show up and 6:52 garden there then it's not really a 6:54 community garden if it only lasts one 6:56 year and then i have to leave for 6:57 various reasons or can't take care of 6:59 the garden in the garden goes away 7:00 really isn't a community garden it's 7:02 just my pet project right so i think 7:04 that's 7:05 that's the thing to take away from me is 7:06 build that resilient community build up 7:08 a leadership team think about how that 7:10 garden's gonna last beyond beyond you in 7:13 that in that role so 7:15 yeah that's really helpful 7:17 um so recently the ipcc issued a report 7:21 addressing climate change um how do you 7:23 see that report as impacting the 7:25 discussion around climate change and 7:26 food sustainability in 7:29 yeah general 7:29 can take this one so 7:31 the ipcc report 7:34 didn't tell us anything that we didn't 7:35 already know as climate scientists we 7:38 knew that the situation was dire and 7:39 that we needed to act a long time ago 7:42 but i think this report 7:44 being an international report where 7:47 uh scientists from acro across the globe 7:49 have agreed upon these 7:51 basic things that we need to do to 7:53 mitigate the impact of climate change 7:56 has put new um pressure on global 8:00 governments to work together to do 8:02 things like create sustainable 8:05 agriculture systems everywhere 8:07 agriculture is a huge contributor to 8:09 greenhouse gas emissions 8:11 agriculture is impacted heavily by 8:14 climate change 8:15 extreme weather events drought flooding 8:19 everything that's happening right now 8:20 globally is is negatively impacting our 8:23 food supply 8:24 so 8:25 this report 8:26 was a wake-up call saying 8:29 we need to do this now everybody needs 8:31 to do this our global governments need 8:33 to get together and figure out how to do 8:35 it because food is an international 8:37 issue right food does not stay in one 8:40 place usually um so what goes on in 8:42 brazil and access here goes on in china 8:45 impacts us here 8:47 all these things need to be connected 8:49 um so the the solution that i have 8:53 for 8:55 policy makers is to put as much 8:58 funding and personnel as possible into 9:01 diversification of agriculture 9:04 diversification 9:06 meaning increasing the number 9:08 of types of species that you're growing 9:11 instead of 9:13 you know the majority of food produced 9:14 in the world is 9:15 corn soy rice 9:19 and wheat and 9:21 that is not a diverse diet it's not 9:24 going to allow us to continue growing 9:26 food into the future because it's 9:28 in these intensive monocultures that are 9:30 very very susceptible to climate change 9:32 and are contributing to climate change 9:35 and if we 9:36 want to make ourselves more resilient 9:39 for the future 9:40 we need to start growing lots of 9:42 different types of food everywhere 9:45 and this can be done through things like 9:47 agroforestry 9:49 and intercropping where you grow two 9:51 crops next to each other 9:53 or just you know the standard 9:55 diversified vegetable farm where you 9:57 have maybe 40 different species growing 10:00 at any given time if there's a disease 10:02 that comes in and wipes out one crop all 10:04 the other crops are going to be fine and 10:06 you continue to have access to food 10:08 whereas if you have one crop and 10:10 something comes in and wipes it out then 10:12 you're out of luck 10:13 and you've lost maybe you know hundreds 10:15 of acres of food yeah those are also 10:19 really great and useful techniques 10:22 um do you see those as impacting the way 10:24 that large industrial farms do their 10:26 business currently 10:28 yes 10:29 so 10:32 one way that large industrial farms can 10:35 diversify 10:37 without changing what they're currently 10:39 growing is by adding in cover crops in 10:42 those times of the year when they aren't 10:44 growing any food 10:45 so cover crops are 10:48 non-harvested crops that you grow in 10:50 between your traditional food crops 10:53 and they provide a ton of ecosystem 10:56 services that can help us 10:58 manage the impacts of climate change on 11:01 farms 11:02 so one thing is you have plants growing 11:05 year round so that means you have 11:07 photosynthesis happening all the time 11:09 photosynthesis is taking carbon out of 11:11 the atmosphere and putting it in the 11:13 ground so that's a really good thing 11:16 that these industrial farms can do 11:18 and they can also 11:21 diversify their rotations 11:23 and by that we mean 11:25 what you grow year after year so instead 11:27 of growing the same thing every year you 11:29 grow different things every year and so 11:32 the current 11:33 standard crop rotation is two or three 11:36 crops you can increase that to five or 11:38 six 11:39 and still use the same equipment that 11:41 you have 11:42 and you know function sort of the same 11:45 way but you can produce many more types 11:47 of food 11:50 on your on your land to provide a more 11:52 diverse diet to the global population 11:55 awesome that's a really useful 11:57 information 11:58 um 11:59 going from the perspective of 12:02 you know regular consumers kind of 12:03 outside of um business world 12:06 what are some ways in engaging in food 12:08 sustainability when purchasing 12:10 sustainable foods isn't exactly an 12:12 affordable option 12:15 alex do you think you could take this 12:16 one 12:17 yeah sure so that's a great question 12:19 cameron i think 12:21 that uh there are a few ways a few ways 12:23 to dig into this um but don't waste the 12:26 food that you do buy right like 12:28 you know you can't maybe find a 12:29 sustainable option at least don't waste 12:32 the bits that you do uh make sure you're 12:34 eating everything 12:35 um 12:37 reducing red meat consumption right so i 12:39 think you look at some of those 12:42 animal products that emit a lot of 12:43 greenhouse gas emissions so red meat you 12:46 know beef for sure 12:48 goat lamb 12:50 you know other things that folks eat in 12:51 that space um 12:54 eating lower on the food chain which is 12:55 really similar to that kind of no red 12:57 meat so thinking about um if you're 12:59 eating seafood maybe the smaller fish 13:02 right like less tuna more sardines 13:05 for example 13:06 might be a way to look at that 13:08 and then eating seasonally right so 13:11 you might not be able to find an organic 13:13 option which organic shouldn't be the 13:15 end-all be-all on your sustainability 13:17 bucket list 13:19 but you probably can purchase things 13:21 that are in season wherever you are and 13:23 don't purchase the things that are 13:24 coming out of season right so tomatoes 13:27 in the middle of winter coming out of a 13:29 hot house nearby 13:31 it takes a lot of energy into heat and 13:33 and to put light on those tomatoes um 13:36 you know getting things air freighted in 13:38 not real good so getting asparagus out 13:40 of season coming from south america 13:43 really bad for the environment so you 13:45 know are there opportunities maybe not 13:48 to buy organic but could you buy 13:50 in bulk during the season and in store 13:53 right could you can that could you 13:54 freeze that it's pretty easy to throw 13:56 things in a freezer bag if you have 13:58 access to a deep freezer and you know 14:00 have them out through the winter i eat 14:02 mostly out of my garden year round um 14:05 without a lot of work because i'm able 14:07 to freeze and can and put up a bunch of 14:09 the things that we have in season or buy 14:11 from farmer friends and others nearby so 14:15 i think that's kind of the 14:17 big takeaway is you know 14:20 think about the energy it takes to grow 14:21 everything you have or eat everything 14:22 you know that's being grown and 14:25 try to reduce it 14:26 and and try to store as much as you can 14:28 and don't think of organic as the only 14:31 sustainable option 14:32 yeah that definitely changes my 14:34 perspective and maybe some of the 14:36 learners watching on how we go into the 14:38 grocery store and purchase food even if 14:40 it's organic stuff 14:42 so allison are there ways that farmers 14:44 can easily transition to selling 14:46 environmentally friendly products 14:49 yeah so 14:50 if this isn't easy but there are ways 14:54 that farmers can 14:56 utilize their networks and government 14:58 programs to do this 15:00 so sustainable food production is often 15:02 more expensive up front 15:04 than what they've been doing because 15:06 it's not subsidized by the government as 15:09 much 15:10 so 15:11 farmers can work together as part of 15:14 farmer networks to support each other 15:16 through this process 15:18 so i think having that 15:20 connection with others who have already 15:22 done what you are trying to do when 15:24 there are very few other resources to 15:26 support things like sustainable 15:28 agriculture that it's really important 15:30 to have these relationships developed 15:32 between farmers 15:34 this includes just getting together and 15:36 sharing what they've learned and 15:38 developing 15:39 mentorships between farmers who have 15:41 more and less experience with 15:43 sustainable agricultural practices 15:46 and then 15:47 that 15:48 is often combined with 15:51 funding from 15:52 government programs that are supporting 15:54 sustainable agriculture 15:56 so often the mentorship is required in 15:59 order to do the practice but the 16:00 practice costs money so they need to 16:03 have funding available in order to pay 16:06 those upfront costs eventually 16:08 sustainable agriculture will pay for 16:10 itself 16:11 but it often takes five to ten years for 16:13 that to happen 16:14 so 16:15 we need that upfront support for the 16:17 farmers in order to get this going 16:19 yeah hopefully they'll be able to make 16:21 that transition thank you for that 16:23 could i hop in and offer some additional 16:25 support to yeah 16:27 feel free um 16:28 i completely agree with what allison was 16:30 saying i think that transition and 16:33 support 16:34 funding is is critical 16:36 right so as she was mentioning it it 16:38 takes a few years for that transition to 16:40 to make sense economically um you know 16:43 this this is where advocating with our 16:45 local elected officials or policymakers 16:48 or writing into government programs to 16:51 ask about that shift in support you know 16:54 we talked about earlier where the large 16:57 majority of crops grown are corn soy 16:59 wheat and rice in the world you know 17:02 about 40 of us corn goes to ethanol 17:04 production um remaining like another 40 17:08 of what's left goes to to feed uh soy in 17:11 the us it's about 70 75 of it goes to 17:13 feed 17:14 um the rest goes to biofuel very little 17:18 goes to the things that people actually 17:20 eat so i think not only are we looking 17:22 at a more environmentally friendly 17:25 agriculture but trying to think about 17:27 where is that we are sending the things 17:29 that we do grow right so i think it's a 17:32 two-part question to me which is how do 17:33 we shift and what are we really needing 17:35 to shift to 17:36 um if we can shift some of that away 17:39 from biofuel for example like that might 17:41 be a good thing 17:43 it might be good to shift it away from 17:45 animal feed and to human feed so can we 17:48 can we move some of the crops that we 17:49 are growing to 17:50 to crops that make more sense for the 17:52 the world as as we grow into it yeah 17:55 definitely the economics behind all this 17:57 is really fascinating 17:59 so allison are there ways that farmers 18:01 can easily transition to selling 18:03 environmentally friendly products 18:06 yeah so 18:08 if this isn't easy but there are ways 18:11 that farmers can 18:13 utilize their networks and government 18:15 programs to do this 18:17 so sustainable food production is often 18:19 more expensive up front 18:21 than what they've been doing because 18:23 it's not subsidized by the government as 18:26 much 18:27 so farmers can work together as part of 18:31 farmer networks to support each other 18:33 through this process so i think having 18:36 that 18:37 connection with others who have already 18:39 done what you're trying to do when there 18:41 are very few other resources to support 18:44 things like sustainable agriculture that 18:46 it's really important to have these 18:48 relationships develop between farmers 18:51 this includes just getting together and 18:53 sharing what they've learned and 18:55 developing 18:56 mentorships between farmers who have 18:58 more and less experience with 19:00 sustainable agricultural practices 19:03 and then 19:04 that 19:05 is often combined with 19:08 funding from government programs that 19:11 are supporting sustainable agriculture 19:13 so often the mentorship is required in 19:16 order to do the practice but the 19:18 practice costs money so they need to 19:20 have 19:21 funding available in order to pay those 19:23 upfront costs 19:25 eventually sustainable agriculture will 19:27 pay for itself 19:28 but it often takes five to ten years for 19:30 that to happen so 19:32 we need that upfront support for the 19:34 farmers in order to get this going 19:36 yeah hopefully they'll be able to make 19:38 that transition thank you for that 19:40 could i hop in and offer some additional 19:42 support to yeah 19:44 feel free um 19:45 i completely agree with what allison was 19:47 saying i think that transition and 19:50 support um 19:51 funding is is critical right so as she 19:54 was mentioning it it takes a few years 19:56 for that transition to to make sense 19:58 economically um you know this this is 20:01 where advocating with our local elected 20:03 officials or policymakers or writing 20:06 into 20:07 government programs to ask about that 20:09 shift in support you know 20:12 we talked about earlier where the large 20:14 majority of crops grown or corn soy 20:16 wheat and rice in the world you know 20:19 about 40 percent of u.s corn goes to 20:21 ethanol production 20:23 um remaining like another 40 of what's 20:25 left goes to to feed uh soy in the us 20:28 it's about 70 75 percent of it goes to 20:30 feed 20:31 um the rest goes to biofuel very little 20:35 goes to the things that people actually 20:37 eat so i think not only are we looking 20:39 at a more environmentally friendly 20:42 agriculture but trying to think about 20:44 where is that we are sending the things 20:46 that we do grow right so i think it's a 20:49 two-part question to me which is how do 20:51 we shift and what are we really needing 20:52 to shift to um if we can shift some of 20:56 that away from io fuel for example like 20:58 that might be a good thing 21:00 it might be good to shift it away from 21:02 animal feed and to human feed so can we 21:05 can we move some of the crops that we 21:06 are growing to to crops that make more 21:08 sense for the the world as as we grow 21:11 into it yeah definitely the economics 21:13 behind all this is really fascinating 21:16 um 21:17 so one final question for you guys what 21:19 are some other readings if learners want 21:22 to continue 21:23 um you know learning about climate 21:24 change and food sustainability that 21:26 you'd recommend 21:28 yeah i can start with this 21:30 so 21:31 there are a lot of books that are 21:33 written to a general audience 21:35 that are helpful such as michael pollins 21:38 the omnivores the limit 21:40 which gets into 21:43 how you can change your diet to eat more 21:46 sustainably and it looks at all 21:47 different types of diets 21:50 um 21:50 and talks a lot about about meat 21:53 and how how meat impacts impacts the 21:56 planet there's a movie called dirt the 21:58 movie 21:59 that i found to be really helpful 22:02 um it really talks about how the soil 22:06 is critical to growing food and it gets 22:09 you into the nitty-gritty of that in a 22:11 in a very accessible way 22:15 francis maura lepay 22:17 uh published a book in the 70s called 22:20 a diet for a small planet 22:23 and it 22:24 has why 22:27 you should eat lower on the food chain 22:28 an explanation about that and then a 22:30 bunch of recipes 22:32 so eating sustainable food is hard in a 22:34 lot of ways because most of us didn't 22:36 grow up 22:37 making all these recipes that can often 22:39 be more complicated than simply grilling 22:42 meat or 22:44 or 22:45 putting something in a microwave so this 22:47 book is helpful in providing both the 22:49 why and the how to to being 22:52 having a more sustainable diet 22:54 and recently 22:56 for those of you who have hope that we 22:57 can fix this 22:58 at climate change and sustainable food 23:01 problem 23:02 the small planet institute 23:05 recently published a book called it's 23:08 not too late 23:09 it's an ebook that's available for free 23:11 on the internet and it's in light of the 23:14 ipcc report 23:16 about the direness of the climate 23:18 problem suggests that through action and 23:21 activism we can still fix this 23:24 so i think that's a really nice book to 23:26 have if you if you 23:27 uh want to 23:29 to have more hope about the future 23:32 and then one more thing 23:34 uh is the food literacy for all website 23:37 at the university of michigan has an 23:40 amazing uh 23:42 treasure trove of 23:44 recordings 23:45 of experts talking about the food system 23:47 from almost every perspective you can 23:49 imagine 23:50 and so i would recommend going on that 23:52 website and checking out all of that 23:56 awesome that is a ton of resources 23:59 hopefully our learners will take 24:00 advantage of those alex do you have 24:02 anything to add yeah yeah thanks cameron 24:05 and that's a great list allison i would 24:08 uh just add a couple additional 24:10 potential resources um 24:12 one farming while black leah pennamon 24:15 great great book 24:17 and i think opens up a conversation 24:19 around diversity in agriculture and as 24:21 we think about sustainability is not 24:23 just focused on 24:24 planet but people and society as well 24:28 i would also offer the foodies guide to 24:31 capitalism by eric jimenez who one of 24:33 the 24:34 former speakers for food literacy for 24:36 all um 24:38 gets and and really dives into 24:40 is is food production well suited for 24:44 our economic model 24:46 and perhaps 24:48 externalizing all of the costs of 24:49 production onto the environment on 24:51 people around us it's maybe not been the 24:53 best and capitalism is applied to 24:56 um 24:57 you know our economic or our food 24:59 production model then doesn't always 25:01 work out it's really well written 25:04 great great book 25:05 and then there's a 25:07 website and sort of a 25:10 weekly newsletter digest you can get 25:12 from the counter so just a online 25:15 resource and in 25:17 food journalism 25:18 and food systems journalism 25:20 incredible resource every week you know 25:22 whether investigative articles or deeper 25:24 dives onto 25:26 different topics in food sustainability 25:28 and i find 25:30 they've covered uh climate change and 25:32 soil science really well recently in 25:34 some other articles so worth looking 25:36 into 25:37 definitely definitely i think i'd have 25:39 to check out some of those myself even 25:42 so thank you both again for being here 25:44 and i'd also like to thank our learners 25:46 for continuing to engage in this teach 25:48 out and continue to ask questions 25:51 thank you guys 25:52 thanks