Barbara McQuade: Role of Journalism
Barbara McQuade, Professor at the University of Michigan and Law School and former US Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, thinks through the ways that news, media, and journalism play a role in the impeachment process from legal and societal standpoints.
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0:00 welcome back to the Teachout on 0:02 impeachment I'm here again with Barbara 0:04 McQuade who's a professor from practice 0:06 at the University of Michigan law school 0:07 as well as the former United States 0:09 Attorney for the Eastern District of 0:11 Michigan thanks again for joining us for 0:13 another quick conversation Thank You 0:15 Benjamin 0:15 so for this conversation I want to dive 0:18 into the role of journalism so you know 0:21 as I understand in your background 0:23 you've you've had some experience in 0:26 journalism both as a student here at 0:27 Michigan and a lot of your work has 0:30 appeared in like the Washington Post 0:33 Newsweek New York Times and you're also 0:35 a legal analyst for NBC News and MSNBC 0:38 so diving a little bit deeper into that 0:41 how did you get involved in journalism 0:43 well you know my earliest memory of the 0:46 news as a child was Watergate I found it 0:48 fascinating I didn't know what it was I 0:50 remember asking my mother what's 0:52 Watergate because I saw it on the 0:53 headlines of the newspapers every day 0:54 and I tried to read it but couldn't 0:56 quite get caught up and understand the 0:57 story and she told me quite accurately 1:00 that Watergate was an office building 1:01 which only confused me even further but 1:03 I was always fascinated by it I read all 1:06 the President's Men and I saw the movie 1:08 and thought that was such an important 1:10 part of America and democracy the 1:13 watchdog's of democracy as as reporters 1:16 and so I was very interested in that and 1:18 so the very first day I got to the 1:20 University as a student I joined the 1:22 Michigan daily and although my diploma 1:24 says economics 1:25 I majored in the Michigan daily 1:27 wonderful so it sounds like you had some 1:30 experience kind of as a consumer as a 1:33 young girl you were able to kind of 1:35 follow that through and it sounds like 1:37 impeachment was actually the first topic 1:38 that you experienced so looking back 1:41 kind of retrospectively you know what 1:44 role historically has the media played 1:47 in covering impeachment well you know it 1:50 says that story of Woodward and 1:51 Bernstein tells not only were they 1:53 covering that they were investigating it 1:55 which is a very interesting role and I 1:57 think we're seeing a new kind of Golden 1:59 Age of journalism going on now in this 2:02 impeachment inquiry we see reporters 2:05 breaking big news stories that forces 2:08 officials to respond to allegations and 2:11 so I think it's an important role you 2:13 know when I was 2:14 US Attorney I found that the media 2:16 played a very important role in our work 2:18 we had a fairly significant case 2:20 involving the former mayor of Detroit 2:22 Kwame Kilpatrick who was ultimately 2:24 convicted in public corruption charges 2:27 but a big part of that case involved 2:29 work done by the Detroit Free Press they 2:32 had found some text messages between 2:34 Mayor Koch Patrick and his staff that 2:36 they published in the Free Press and 2:38 when we became aware of it through that 2:40 reporting we then got a search warrant 2:42 to go get those same text messages and 2:44 we're able to use it as evidence that 2:45 was extremely helpful in that case and 2:48 so I think journalism plays a 2:50 significant role in holding public 2:53 officials accountable 2:54 so how has journalism evolved since the 2:56 days of Nixon and and that story and how 2:59 that you know everything kind of came 3:01 about there there's a lot of 3:02 investigation on the side of the press 3:05 to expose that how has that changed and 3:08 evolved in in today's situations well we 3:10 still have you know mainstream press 3:13 which does I think an important job you 3:16 know in those days there were the 3:17 newspapers and radio and three 3:19 television stations and now we have 3:21 those plus so much more I think one 3:24 thing that worries me is when you have 3:26 so many players in the game the 3:29 standards get eroded you know I'm sure 3:31 that those respected respected brands 3:34 still have high quality professionalism 3:37 and journalistic ethics but how about 3:39 the bloggers and other people who may 3:42 not feel the same standards apply to 3:45 them and then of course we have social 3:47 media where almost anybody can become a 3:49 reporter or can retweet or link to 3:52 articles that may be fabrications you 3:55 know as we saw in the 2016 election we 3:57 had people reading articles from 3:59 newspapers that didn't exist and you 4:01 know you see it it looks good it looks 4:03 like it's got proper branding and you 4:06 believed it to be true so we've entered 4:08 a very new era when it comes to news 4:10 reporting so it sounds like there's a 4:13 lot of lessons to kind of reflect on and 4:15 learn from you know every day we have a 4:18 lot of information coming at us from 4:21 various sources and as an individual we 4:23 have to curate and decide what to pay 4:25 attention to 4:26 what to disregard and there isn't 4:28 necessarily a signpost as to how to do 4:31 that what advice would you have for our 4:33 learners who are trying to think think 4:35 through how to make sense in contextual 4:37 eyes what's happening with an 4:38 impeachment specifically right now it's 4:41 a real challenge and I think one of the 4:42 challenges when we have a president who 4:44 calls everything fake news that is just 4:47 unfavorable news 4:48 then people become very skeptical of 4:50 everything they read and then nothing 4:52 has value which is also a problem so the 4:55 opposite thing can be true um I looked 4:58 it news is is it a reputable brand is it 5:00 coming from a news organization that has 5:03 professional ethical standards and you 5:05 know there are some newspapers and other 5:08 media that have that brand and then when 5:10 you read the particular stories within 5:13 those brands how are they sourced are 5:15 they referencing attribution to actual 5:19 officials are they unnamed are they 5:22 speaking on condition of anonymity are 5:25 they speaking on background and so you 5:28 know certainly if someone is willing to 5:29 put their name on something you can put 5:31 a lot more credibility on that article 5:33 than if it was just an unnamed source 5:35 but is it more than one source or 5:37 they're two different sources who've 5:38 confirmed the same thing usually 5:39 reporters won't report something unless 5:41 they can get at least a second source to 5:43 confirm that that story is true and so 5:46 that's important as well is there more 5:48 than one media outlet reporting the same 5:50 story so if it's just one outlet who has 5:52 it 5:52 maybe withhold judgment but if a second 5:55 or third media outlet confirms that 5:57 reporting that I think can help to 6:00 confirm that the story is accurate as 6:01 well you know we still have libel laws 6:02 in this country and so I think that 6:05 journalism journalists with high 6:08 standards are going to comply with the 6:10 law because of concern that you know 6:12 lawsuits could result if they don't as 6:14 well as just loss of reputation which 6:17 could be very damaging to their brand in 6:19 their career you quickly explain what 6:20 libel laws are so libel laws make it a 6:25 civil infraction you can be sued civilly 6:28 if someone says something false about 6:31 you that's damaging to your reputation 6:33 that harms your standing in the 6:34 community a defense to a libel or 6:38 defamation lawsuit 6:39 truth and so if what someone said about 6:41 you is true even if it's damaging that's 6:44 okay it's when someone says something 6:45 that's false 6:47 there's higher standards for people who 6:48 are public officials it because we don't 6:52 want to chill journalists who might get 6:54 a detail wrong as long as the gist of 6:56 the story is accurate it's usually 6:57 alright but you can't make up news out 7:00 of whole cloth perfect well Thank You 7:02 Barbara for helping us better understand 7:04 the journalistic landscape as it relates 7:06 to impeachment thanks measurment glad to 7:08 be with you great and thank you for 7:10 joining us in this part of the Teachout 7:11 we look forward to continue the 7:13 discussion with you in future segments